Yes, I'm being a bit self-indulgent, but I'm here to pick some brains of their experience.

Time is not on my side. My Dad's 91 in November 2011, so I need to press ahead. He has albums of B&W pix divided into decades: 40-50, 50-60 and so on. There are many historically interesting pix in them. I've started digitising them, with a plan to display them on the www. Here's a sample: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/perrynz/Plimmerton41S.jpg

The plan is mostly one-way. I upload the pix, allow for any text area commentary that Dad may give me and put them on show. Certainly by decade, to start - to match the albums. Could I later subsect them into years/event/whatever? Or do structural things like that have to be set before I start?

I want to allow for people to add comment[s] in some way. Per pic would be good. But I don't want the display to be anything but simple. Thumbnails > to full size; perhaps with a slideshow option, plus allowing for comments - and that's about all I can think of, for now.

Is ZenPhoto ideal for that? I was attracted to the simplicity notion.

Right now, I'll go feed the hens. I'll come back later, to see if anyone has commented. (Yes, I have web hosting arranged)

Yes to all. I suggest to read a little on the site etc, for example here: http://www.zenphoto.org/news/features

Yes, I had taken some time to read a few pages. Let me ask the
question: is ZP intended for experienced html and experienced
webmaster types? Or perhaps experienced photographers? I ask
because there is a fair amount of presumptive technical jargon
in some of the features pages.

Zenphoto is a CMS to be installed on your own webserver to run a selfhosted website (not necessarily photographers websites...). Since installing an application on a server is probably not the right to start if you have no knowledge of web techniques at all. Afterall Zenphoto is a program you have to learn to use like any other one.

Regarding design and functionality it is the same as with all other CMS out there. If one of the available standard or 3rd party themes and their functionality fit your needs you don't need to have programming knowledge. But it is really recommended to have some basic web technique knowledge. You really should have heard of things like HTML and such.

But if you have special wishes regarding design or functionality you need some knowledge or someone that has that. There is naturally not and can't be an option for everything, for some things you need to do some work yourself.

"Some knowledge?" Yes I can lay claim to that. It's the degree that's critical and I have no problem learning. I have made a start and done some very basic html scripting. My father's web page 'up,' although somewhat barren, at the moment.
http://spillerfamily.info/russell/
That's the planned destination for all his historical pix.

But "web techniques" sounds like a different thing. The host's tech support is excellent. I don't anticipate any difficulties there, even though the recommendation (here) is not to use installers like fantastico.

Anyway, I appreciate your patience. I've been using computers since 8 bit processors @ 4Hz, with no hard drives and all CLI. Even done a bit of rudimentary mailmerge programming, back then, so grasping the syntax requirements of xhtml is a tad easier, for that experience. But I have learned to seek the benefit of others' experience before taking a headlong leap into the next program.

<s>Seymour's Law of Software states</s>
The ease of implementation of any computer software varies in inverse proportion to the claims of facility made by the vendor

Looks like you have got off to a good start. I am sure you can "learn by example" from looking at other theme scripts, etc.

Just FYI, the only reason we recommend against inscall scripts like fantastico is that they tend to cause problems down the line. (Disclaimer--I have not used fantastico, nor do I remember any problems specific to it, so it may be great.) Most of the issues come when you wish to upgrade Zenphoto for some reason. Often it is not possible to make a successful "normal" install over one of these helper script installs because it has done something "different" (and who know what.) That leaves you to wait until the script providers support the upgrade you want.

But just so you know, my first Zenphoto install was done via such a script. What I did was look at the result so that I understood things like how to setup the database. That is really the only complex part of the standard install--the rest is simple FTP.

Right, I have sallied forth and stumbled off to a start. Some interesting things reveal themselves. [i]I have sore knees![/i]

[b]Installation[/b]
Download the latest version of Zenphoto.
Extract the files and upload them to your web directory via FTP.
Create a MySQL database if you haven't already one.
Navigate to your gallery. EXAMPLE: www.yoursite.org/zenphoto/zp-core/setup.php. Setup will run automatically the first time you visit the gallery. Make sure everything checks out then click GO!

1) My web host (others?) provides for unzipping, in situ. (I found out too late, but I'll know better, next time) I also was advised - post installation - to copy the program folders to any other domain name folder I was planning to use zenphoto in, before I ran the setup file. Sage counsel, I thought.

2) With some further hand-holding from the host tech support, I created a MSQL database. (Two, actually, while the process was fresh in my mind. Very much a web host-specific thing, I suspect.)

3) [i]Navigate to your gallery.[/i] Hhhmmmm. I have the zenphoto program folders in place; I have created a database; from whence should appear this [i]gallery[/i] thing?

4) [i]Navigate[/i] from within the web host file manager? Use a browser tab/window in some (front-end-to-back-end) way of access? I suppose the www prefix was a giveaway. How about changing that to: "Using your browser, navigate to your Zenphoto set up folder. EXAMPLE: www.yoursite.org/zenphoto/zp-core/setup.php "

5) Then there was some difficulty with a wraith-like thing called [i]"register globals."[/i] ( http://php.net/manual/en/security.globals.php ) But the web host tech folks hand-held me there, too. Was it necessary? I can't be sure.

6) So I'm staring at a large vacant space on my monitor (gallery admin) with tabs across the top. I return to the zenphoto.org pages looking for inspiration about what to do next. Couldn't locate any. Went back and fiddled. Created one album, uploaded one photo; got one 404 web response to [View Album] ( http://spillerfamily.info/russell/index.php?album=1940_1950 ). But [View Gallery] gets me the index page I already have for www.spillerfamily.info/russell

<sighs> I'll give up for the night, now. But I do earnestly ask: where is the tutorial help to simply get one started? Guidance on what to do initially, after surviving a successful installation?

Now don't get me wrong. I appreciate that you're doing all this out of the goodness of your hearts. But if people give up in exasperation too soon, too much of your ardent labours are far less effective than they deserve to be.

1) This is basic web knowledge if installing either a pure HTML site or a CMS like Zenphoto that you need to choose where to put it.

2) Hosts provide a function on their backend for the server. Since all a different that is nothing we can care about. We could theoretically create the database on setup but virtually no host allows that because of security.

3)/4) Navigate to your gallery which is naturally the website you are about to setup is quite obviously where you just installed it. So if you instaled in a folder /zenphoto on your webserver that is where you navigate to. Zenphoto then will call the setup automatically as it can't run without being installed!

5) Not all servers are setup the same way but Zenphoto as all CMS requires some standard setting (and it works out of the box on all shared hosts I know over here). That is what your host is for.

6) So where did you install Zenphoto? In spillerfamily.info/russel? You apparently already have a static index.html page in there which takes priority over a index.php of Zenphoto as the server is setup that way. You can't have two index files naturally. So remove the index.html that is already there. Or install Zenphoto in a subfolder.

Sorry, all these things are quite basic web things. Remember you are installing a CMS on your own webserver! That is probably nothing a "beginner" should do. We did make it quite easy but since it is technically it can't be avoided completly.
Maybe you would be better off with a hosted service where you don't have to do anything, with all the disadvantages that has.

We have a screenshot section which also has some (older) screencasts. Actually Zenphoto is pretty selfexplanatory. You should take some time to play with it.

1) This is basic web knowledge if installing either a pure HTML site or a CMS like Zenphoto that you need to choose where to put it.

I didn't have any difficulties with that step, really. As with step two, I was describing the process, for continuity.

2) Hosts provide a function on their backend for the server. Since all a different that is nothing we can care about. We could theoretically create the database on setup but virtually no host allows that because of security.

Again: I had no great difficulties with that, with very good help from hostgator technical support people.

3)/4) Navigate to your gallery which is naturally the website you are about to setup is quite obviously where you just installed it. So if you installed in a folder /zenphoto on your web server that is where you navigate to. Zenphoto then will call the setup automatically as it can't run without being installed!

I strongly suggest that the words are different. There can be no photo gallery in existence until one is created. That cannot occur until after set up and that cannot occur until after successfully after navigating to an installation folder where the set-up file is to be found.

5) Not all servers are set up the same way but Zenphoto as all CMS requires some standard setting (and it works out of the box on all shared hosts I know over here). That is what your host is for.

I was told that's something to do with php, about which I am totally ignorant. The only code level stuff I've done in the distant past was CPM.

6) So where did you install Zenphoto? In spillerfamily.info/russel? You apparently already have a static index.html page in there which takes priority over a index.php of Zenphoto as the server is setup that way. You can't have two index files naturally. So remove the index.html that is already there. Or install Zenphoto in a subfolder.

Yes, the install folder was as you've guessed. That very possibility seeped into my brain, overnight. Again, a matter of terminology. I think you mean that having two index files will mean that only one will work, or one will over-write another, or the second one wont be created, if attempted. Or some such. There was no error message saying a file of that name already existed, or that it could not be created. Would it not be possible to have two index files with differing extensions in the same folder: dot php and dot html?

I have checked the folder on the web server and there is only one file with the name index.* so I have to presume that my one gallery with one photo did not actually get created.

Sorry, all these things are quite basic web things. Remember you are installing a CMS on your own web server! That is probably nothing a "beginner" should do. We did make it quite easy but since it is technically it can't be avoided completely. Maybe you would be better off with a hosted service where you don't have to do anything, with all the disadvantages that has?

Now, now. I tried to make it plain that I was detailing my experiences in order to be helpful. Not to put down anyone or anyone's efforts. I need to learn. I said so in the first sentence of my first post.

We have a screenshot section which also has some (older) screen casts. Actually Zenphoto is pretty self-explanatory. You should take some time to play with it.

I will indeed do so. I will act on your suggestion that a sub folder is best. It may seem self-explanatory to you, a person with intimate knowledge of the program. I don't think I'm a klutz. Many things are not self-evident, to me. It's also why I asked (in an earlier post) what the knowledge level ought to be in your 'target' users.

I do proof-reading for some people, as a favour. Books, or web sites or technical manuals. I have a knack for picking up things that even English majors miss. I also treat technical terms in an almost code-wise way. I.e. Just like code, having a term mean two things or using two terms for the same thing is likely to create difficulties for the reader. To me, calling the set-up folder a gallery (the word reasonably implies a place wherein photos might be expected to be found) is an example of inappropriate technical help syntax.

I am here to inquire of the greater experience of others; to learn, not to demean. But I'm also offering that learning experience for the benefit and betterment of the developers and their project, if it's deemed useful.

I strongly suggest that the words are different. There can be no photo gallery in existence until one is created. That cannot occur until after set up and that cannot occur until after successfully after navigating to an installation folder where the set-up file is to be found.

I understand what you are saying here. But it is somewhat nitpicking. I think you can buy a hardcover photo album that is empty of photos. But it is still called a photo album. We really do mean browse to the gallery--at least where the gallery will be in your terms. You will then get redirected to the setup script automatically.

Again, a matter of terminology

Exactly. That is why we have this link http://www.zenphoto.org/news/zenphoto-glossary

I think you mean that having two index files will mean that only one will work, or one will over-write another, or the second one wont be created, if attempted. Or some such. There was no error message saying a file of that name already existed, or that it could not be created.

Again this is an experience level thing. For the record, you can have as many "index" files as you want in the root--of course all with different suffixes. What gets found when you browse to the default will depend on the server configuration. But if you brows directly--that is including the index.xxx file name in the link you get just that page loaded. So it is no error to have multiple versions even though the site might not work the way you expect if you do not know what you are doing.

It is also possible that use of "index.php" is not configured as a default on your server. If so, naturally it will not load by default. Browse to the full link including index.php. If this works, then you know the server is not correctly configured.

I do proof-reading for some people, as a favour. Books, or web sites or technical manuals

We will indeed appreciate such help as you might give. You probably know how difficult it is to proof read one's own writing!

By all means, ask your questions. We will try to make things clearer. We really do wish there were a manual. Unfortunately no one has volunteered (or followed through) on this. Maybe you would consider after your learning experience is complete?

Thanks for all the replies and the implicit patient helpfulness.

I understand what you are saying here. But it is somewhat nitpicking. I think you can buy a hardcover photo album that is empty of photos. But it is still called a photo album. We really do mean browse to the gallery--at least where the gallery will be in your terms. You will then get redirected to the setup script automatically.

I think you've more reinforced my point, rather than countered it, by effectively saying one must browse to something that will only be in existence [b]after one's navigated to it.[/b] Seems somewhat like circular logic, to me.

Again this is an experience level thing. For the record, you can have as many "index" files as you want in the root--of course all with different suffixes. What gets found when you browse to the default will depend on the server configuration. But if you browse directly--that is including the index.xxx file name in the link you get just that page loaded. So it is no error to have multiple versions even though the site might not work the way you expect if you do not know what you are doing.

It is also possible that use of "index.php" is not configured as a default on your server. If so, naturally it will not load by default. Browse to the full link including index.php. If this works, then you know the server is not correctly configured.

I tried, (just in case) but it did not work. Nor did I expect it to do so, as there is no index.php file visible in the folder. So, presumably, no index.php file was created in association with my one-photo-album. (Or it was created somewhere else).

We will indeed appreciate such help as you might give. You probably know how difficult it is to proof read one's own writing!

Yes - I surely do.

By all means, ask your questions. We will try to make things clearer. We really do wish there was a manual. Unfortunately no one has volunteered (or followed through) on this. Maybe you would consider after your learning experience is complete?

Yes, I would consider it, as a contribution. Alas, it could already be too late. I need to make notes right from the start. Ignorance and it's consequences, can rarely be re-captured, after being replaced with experience and knowledge - no matter how limited. It's a syndrome I'm very well acquainted with, both first and second-hand.

That said, regard must be paid to your colleague's remarks. My interim position is that ZenPhoto is not for the [i]ab initio[/i] user, embarking on creating and managing their own web site. Some experience - the right sort - is not just helpful, but necessary, I'd say.

I venture that from the position of being Admin (or Mod) on a number of forums, (aggregate of over 10,000 posts, often helping newbies), from writing moderately complex MS Word form field (fill) documents and a few other related things. Oftentimes, such experiences don't cross-credit as well as one might hope or like.

All-too-often, I have seen a tech read something and say - out loud - [i]"I know what that means."[/i] Implicit in that statement is a degree of the words not conveying lucidly what was intended. The tech draws on his knowledge and experience to interpret what would probably have been the better for being clearer. From experience, brevity desires are commonly to blame.

However, on to my next knee graze . . .

I suspected, and it's been confirmed by a hostgator tech, that moving the zenphoto installation files and folders to a sub folder, say spillerfamily.info/russell/zenphoto, will break the links to the MSQL database already in existence.

What's easiest? Start afresh with a new install in said sub-folder? Change a path in (?) a config or ini file? If so, where? Some alternative solution?

Oh, this error comes up; twice so far. Not sure what, if any problems, it might produce.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/perrynz/Techie%20Stuff/zenphotoerrormessage.jpg

I think you've more reinforced my point, rather than countered it, by effectively saying one must browse to something that will only be in existence after one's navigated to it. Seems somewhat like circular logic, to me.

I understand. Again, it is a terminology issue. Also, you are the first that I know of to have been confused by the terminology.

What do you suggest for a wording? We really to mean to brows to the gallery (in our terms).

The index.php file is not "created". It is part of the files in the Zenphoto package and would have been uploaded when you uploaded those files. So if it is not present then the upload did not happen "per spec".

I do agree that there is a certain level of knowledge needed to install and run a Zenphoto site. For those who without the knowledge and are unable to obtain it we would suggest a stock application such as Picassa.

I suspected, and it's been confirmed by a hostgator tech, that moving the zenphoto installation files and folders to a sub folder, say spillerfamily.info/russell/zenphoto, will break the links to the MSQL database already in existence.

In no way should the placement of files impact anything with the MySQL database. The two are really very independent. Zenphoto does not particularly care what the folder structure of the install is. Of course, the url to the gallery[sic] will be dependent on the structure. If an active install is moved, you do need to re-run the setup scripts so things like the .htaccess rewrite directives point to the correct place.

If moving the files broke something, then the files were not all moved. (Note that if you have successfully installed, you will probably have removed the setup files per instructions. So if you relocate the installation you will have to re-upload those files to be able to re-run the setup.)

I guess at this point the best bet would be to start over with the Zenphoto files. Decide where you want them--in the root of the WEB if Zenphoto is the whole site, in a subfolder if it is to be linked to by other HTML.

Upload the package to that location and cause the setup script to run [just have to say it again!] by browsing to the gallery URL.

BTW, I have re-read this thead. I remember that you mention an install script--fantastico. If you did use such a script then you are experiencing first hand the reasons why we do not recommend such and are stymied in supporting such installations. We have no knowledge of what the might have done to the install which will cause problems (such as you have described.)

Aha! I may be a slow learner - [b]but I do learn![/b] I politely declined the tech's offer of using their quickinstaller. So it has been a manual install, each time. Three times, now. About to embark on a fourth. I parked all the install folders in a separate folder, so I could copy them across to a subfolder, as required.

The second install seemed to default to the wrong database. (Or I missed a prompt somewhere). I tried editing the zpconfig.php to the correct database name, but that didn't work. Something (everything?!) broke. Then it was delete folder and on to install number three.

I understand. Again, it is a terminology issue. Also, you are the first that I know of to have been confused by the terminology.

I can appreciate that. I tend to be very literal, a by-product of much proof-reading. Second-guessing is not allowed! The coin has vice on t'other side of virtue. Also, for reasons of past career path efforts, I'm an avid manual reader. As you might guess, I find chinglish very, very challenging.

That brings to mind another quirk that I encountered, which illustrates my point about being specific; not presuming.

Hold the "control" key and drag the files to the folder on the left you wish to copy them to.

Seems straightforward, doesn't it? But the order in which the left mouse button and the [Ctrl] key is released alters the result.

Thanks for taking me off the moderated posts group, too,

This index file seems to be a wayward child. After a reinstall and another one photo album was created, there was still no index file to be found in the appropriate sub-folder/directory. I.e. The following generates a 404 error page.
http://www.spillerfamily.info/barbara/zenphoto/index.php?album=Later-Years

I'm perplexed.

[list]
[*]Creating an album doesn't create an index file?

[*]I should've created such a file before creating the album?

[*]The error I mentioned (via screenshot graphic) earlier means something needs to be added to the installation folder/files?

[*]If so what?

[*]Can I do that manually?

[*]I need a break from this - I'll go prune some apple trees for a while.
[/list]

The moderated posts list is an automatic thing. Once enough posts have been approved you are in. But you are welcome.

I don't want to be pedantic, but I do caution you that if you really want the documentation for something to be unambiguous you will have to go to volumes. There is always a base of "shared knowledge" assumed in any discussion. That really excludes complete novices from the discussion. Documentation that goes to the extremes is also not useful because it does not get read. (Just an aside. My daughter is a technical writer. As she says, she reads manuals for "professional courtesy.")

With regards to your installs. You really should not need to edit directly the zp-config.php file. (Probably should not given your current state of knowledge!) Rather fill in the forms that the setup program provides. If you fill in the Database form with the right information Zenphoto will go to the right database.

Be sure that the zp-core folder is empty in the source folder (as it is in the installation package.)

Be sure that the zp-core folder is empty in the source folder (as it is in the installation package.)

Is that a mis-key? The zp-core folder is replete with files. In the 'parked' install folder, the sub-folder in which installation was executed and the same for the extracted files version on my local computer.

Right! From ground level pruning on one row of apple trees done. 80 free range hens fed, eggs collected and packed. Well driller phone call dealt with. Evening meal prepared and cooking. Back to it . . . .

With regards to your installs. You really should not need to edit directly the zp-config.php file. (Probably should not given your current state of knowledge!)

Agreed 100%! However - read on . . . .

Rather, fill in the forms that the setup program provides. If you fill in the Database form with the right information, Zenphoto will go to the right database.

Right. But the editing-the-file context was correcting an error. Two likely reasons for that error being:

[list]
[*]moving the program files to a sub-folder. (Although, unlike the hostgator techs, you aver that should not have any adverse impact).

[*]the step of pointing to the correct database being mis-managed at the time of insallation.
[/list]
Changing the target database afterwards, no matter what the cause of the error, seemed apposite. At least for a first try, before delete and re-install became obviously necessary.

All I did was change the respective database parameters in the config file. It didn't work.

The outstanding issue of the moment is the wayward index file. If it wasn't for the fact that I can't even see such a file in any appropriate folder, I'd speculate that it was php vs html extension and the server set-up that was a suspect.

What I might do is use the hostgator quick installer in yet another domain folder, so I can see and compare the results with my manual install attempts.

Ah well, into the breach, dear friend . . . .

Hold the "control" key and drag the files to the folder on the left you wish to copy them to.

I don't know what you are referring to with that...

Be sure that the zp-core folder is empty in the source folder (as it is in the installation package.)

I guess that is a typo, my collegue was referring to the zp-data folder.

Our installation page as a listing of all toplevel files/folders included in the Zenphoto download package. Compare the package you upload with that. If sometings is missing, yours is not correct.

Regarding the database credentials: Your host needs to provide you with these, probably you got these when opening the web space account or they have a FAQ.